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Timing of Use ? (Satchel Card / Hand card)

Forums/ The 7th Citadel/ Rules and Operating Points23 posts
64x64
Posted - Edited
#1
(Cross-posted from BGG, I hope that's ok)

Hi! I have a rules question on Card 150 ("You are Focused"). I want to know whether you can use it to retrieve a card during an action, and then use the card you retrieved using the same action.

Specifically:

Here is a picture of the card:


My detailed question is:
* it's a satchel card, so we know you have to "equip" it during the Gear-up step.
* once you equip it, can you use it at any time during the action? Or do you need to use it at some precise timing?
* suppose I can use it at any time, can I use it to retrieve a card and then use that card inside the same action?

Example: can I decide to equip it during the Gear-up step, then do the Draw step as normal, and then only during the Result step I can decide what card to retrieve (e.g. Casek's Improvize or Determination) depending on what cards I drew during the Draw step, and then use that card -- Casek's Improvize or Determination -- in the Result step of the same action?

From a reading of the rules, it seems like this is allowed. However, this is a super-powerful play (especially if you have a repeatable way to gain card 150 -- wink wink), so I wanted to make sure

(edit 26/3: Clarified that I meant Casek's Improvize and Determination. Unlike some other characters, Casek's Improvize and Determination both can be used at any time in the action and get discarded on use, not blocked.)
64x64
Posted - Edited
#2
According to the rulebook selected gear cards are activated during the RESULT step of the action resolution (together with the skill cards). So you can for example
activate a skill card, discard it, retrieve it with You are focused then use it again.
There is another skill card which does the same as Card 150 and I use it like I described. However, this will not work for Determitnation as it has to be used during the GEAR-UP step.
64x64
Posted
#3
Braxus wrote:
According to the rulebook selected gear cards are activated during the RESULT step of the action resolution (together with the skill cards). So you can for example
activate Improvize, discard it, retrieve it with You are focused then use Improvize again.
There is another skill card which does the same as Card 150 and I use it like I described. However, this will not work for Determitnation as it has to be used during the GEAR-UP step.


Actually your example is not so good because in order to use improvize you have to block it, not discard it. Otherwise a valid example
64x64
Posted - Edited
#4
gforce2k5 wrote:
Braxus wrote:
According to the rulebook selected gear cards are activated during the RESULT step of the action resolution (together with the skill cards). So you can for example
activate Improvize, discard it, retrieve it with You are focused then use Improvize again.
There is another skill card which does the same as Card 150 and I use it like I described. However, this will not work for Determitnation as it has to be used during the GEAR-UP step.


Actually your example is not so good because in order to use improvize you have to block it, not discard it. Otherwise a valid example

Sorry, I did not remember how Improvize worked... but you got the point.
64x64
Posted
#5
gforce2k5 wrote:
Braxus wrote:
According to the rulebook selected gear cards are activated during the RESULT step of the action resolution (together with the skill cards). So you can for example
activate Improvize, discard it, retrieve it with You are focused then use Improvize again.
There is another skill card which does the same as Card 150 and I use it like I described. However, this will not work for Determitnation as it has to be used during the GEAR-UP step.


Actually your example is not so good because in order to use improvize you have to block it, not discard it. Otherwise a valid example


I just checked and my Improvize is discarded after use. Maybe you use a different character.
64x64
Posted
#6
Braxus wrote:
gforce2k5 wrote:
Braxus wrote:
According to the rulebook selected gear cards are activated during the RESULT step of the action resolution (together with the skill cards). So you can for example
activate Improvize, discard it, retrieve it with You are focused then use Improvize again.
There is another skill card which does the same as Card 150 and I use it like I described. However, this will not work for Determitnation as it has to be used during the GEAR-UP step.


Actually your example is not so good because in order to use improvize you have to block it, not discard it. Otherwise a valid example


I just checked and my Improvize is discarded after use. Maybe you use a different character.

Yep my mistake. Didn't occur to me that there might be differences between characters
64x64
Posted
#7
Hi all, sorry for the confusion, in my example I meant Casek's Determination and Improvize, both of which can be used at any time (not only Gear-Up step) and get discarded on use (not blocked). I've updated the original post to represent this.
64x64
Posted
#8
* suppose I can use it at any time, can I use it to retrieve a card and then use that card inside the same action?

Indeed, you can use this effect during any step of the resolution of the current action.
64x64
Posted - Edited
#9
I don't think they can be used at _any time_ as the rulebook is clear that by default skill cards (and gear cards too) are used during the Result step.

eladv wrote:
Hi all, sorry for the confusion, in my example I meant Casek's Determination and Improvize, both of which can be used at any time (not only Gear-Up step) and get discarded on use (not blocked). I've updated the original post to represent this.
64x64
Posted - Edited
#10
In fact, the effect of selected card_type_purse cards and card_type_skill cards in hand can be used at any time during the action resolution.

What is stated in step "3.C Apply the effects of their cards" is that this is the moment when the effect of these cards is applied "in order to get additional successes and/or take additional cards into account and/or convert class icons into various bonuses." For all other effects, they apply at the step concerning them, or at the moment you decide.
64x64
Posted
#11
Sarah wrote:
In fact, the effect of selected card_type_purse cards and card_type_skill cards in hand can be used at any time during the action resolution.

What is stated in step "3.C Apply the effects of their cards" is that this is the moment when the effect of these cards is applied "in order to get additional successes and/or take additional cards into account and/or convert class icons into various bonuses." For all other effects, they apply at the step concerning them, or at the moment you decide.


Thank you for confirming this. Let me bring an example to check if this play is legal during the Consequence step - top row are the revealed cards, bottom row is my hand:

  1. Activate Consider and take Anticipation to my hand.
  2. Discard Consider.
  3. Activate Anticipation in my hand and shuffle Improvize and Jack of trades back to action deck.
  4. Discard Anticipation.
64x64
Posted - Edited
#12
No, that doesn't work because all revealed cards are discarded simultaneously, and it is "instead of discarding them" (4-B on p13) that you add Anticipation to your hand with the effect hand_blue_add of Consider. Therefore, there are no more revealed cards at that moment.
64x64
Posted
#13
Thank you Sarah and all!! So, to summarize, I believe this is the ruling:

Once "You are focused" is equipped during the Gear-up step, it can be used at any time during the action.

And indeed, we can use it late in the action, in order to retrieve the "perfect" card for our needs after we know which cards we drew.

And, furthermore, we can even use it to activate a different hand card TWICE during the same action, by using that other hand card, and then retrieving it from the discard pile, and using it again.

Conclusion: "You are focused" is very powerful indeed!

Thank you all for the help!
64x64
Posted
#14
However, be careful, for this to work the card must have been discarded, which happens once all its effects have been applied or at step 4-B of the action resolution otherwise.

For example, a card like Improvise (D) could not be used in this way (Add 1 card to your hand only applies at step 4-B and it will be discarded at that time).
64x64
Posted - Edited
#15
Sarah wrote:
However, be careful, for this to work the card must have been discarded, which happens once all its effects have been applied or at step 4-B of the action resolution otherwise.

For example, a card like Improvise (D) could not be used in this way (Add 1 card to your hand only applies at step 4-B and it will be discarded at that time).


Wait, this is something new and not covered in the rulebook...
So you say card effects like "Discard this." and "Block this." can not be activated until ALL of the card effects are resolved?

So this specific Improvize card with the hand_blue_addsymbol cannot be used twice with You are focused card because of this? Maybe can I just forfeit the hand_blue_add effect (and not use it later) of Improvize and discard it in the 3.C Result step?
64x64
Posted
#16
"Discard this" is indicated after all the effects on the card, so either you use all the effects and discard it immediately, or not all of its effects are used and it will be discarded at the end of the last step of the current action resolution. So no, you cannot discard a card before you have either used all its effects or waited until the end of the current action resolution (because an effect is still pending, and you cannot decide to ignore it).

Regarding Improvise, its hand_blue_add effect applies at a very specific moment, which is step "4-B Discard the revealed cards". So you can take it back into your hand but you cannot play its effect a second time for the same action.
64x64
Posted
#17
Thanks for the explanation; unfortunately, I am still confused about the meaning of "you have used all its effects". Let me take a couple of examples.
  • I have a card_type_skill in hand with the effect [ icon_succes; Discard this ] . I play the card, I have a icon_succes. Have I used all the effects of the card, and can I discard it and keep my icon_succes floating around until I count my successes (phase 4D), or must I keep the card on the table until then? In the former case, I could maybe use another effect to retrieve my card from the discard pile, and play it again for a second success within the same action.
  • Same question with a card_type_skill with the effect [bonus_fist; Discard this], and another card converting bonus_fist into icon_succes. If I play the card, obtain the bonus_fist and convert it, can I discard the card before counting successes, and keep the icon_succes around? (And in particular, can I fetch it from the discard pile with another effect to play it again?)

I guess that in both case the answer is that you cannot discard before counting the results. But what about the following:
  • I play a card_type_skill with the effect [bonus_fist; Discard this], and thanks to that card, the action is a success. (I needed the bonus_fist to generate a missing icon_succes). After determining the action is successful, I discard the cards I played and look at the white consequence box. I see that I must loose some hit points. I play an effect to retrieve my card [bonus_fist; Discard this] from the discard pile and use it again in order to activate some kind of armor and avoid the loss.

Is this intended to work?
64x64
Posted
#18
To summarize:

Example 1: You discard it when counting successes at Step 3-C, so no, you cannot count the star a second time.
Example 2: Yes, you can use it, but not for Step 3-C.

And so your final example works perfectly.
64x64
Posted
#19
Call me stupid, but the more we discuss how timing and effect resolution works the more I am confused. Can we just list all the cards which can be applied twice using the You are focused card?
64x64
Posted - Edited
#20
All cards, but each card can only be used once per phase.
Forums/ The 7th Citadel/ Rules and Operating Points23 posts
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