Forums/ The 7th Citadel/ Rules and Operating Points9 messages |
---|
Posté
Some cards have effects which apply in different steps, and also text saying to block or discard them. This topic is about where those cards exist in between activating them for the first effect, and applying the second, later, effect. This matters for at least three reasons:
1. Other cards which care whether they're the "only card in your hand". 2. Cards which let you discard other cards from hand as part of their effect. 3. When you can and can't recover the card with "You are Focused" (although I would like to think this is actually entirely irrelevant). There's two ways I can see to interpret the situation. A) When you play the card, you immediately gain all of the effects and follow all of the instructions. Some of those effects don't have any impact until a later step, but that's fine. B) When you play the card, you immediately apply the first effect which is relevant when you play it. However, the card then becomes stalled waiting for the second effect to become relevant. In that time the card is still considered to be in your hand, because you haven't reached the instruction to block/discard it yet. (A), as far as I can tell, works completely fine and has no issues associated with it. It requires accepting that an effect from a card can still apply even though the card was played earlier and has moved elsewhere, but there's really no reason to have a problem with that. There's also clear precedent. A ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() (B) on the other hand seems to me extremely problematic and unnecessary. However, I'm forced to take it seriously because it seems to be the official stance taken in this thread: https://the7thcitadel.seriouspoulp.com/en/forum/topic/10382/timing-of-use-satchel-card-hand-card/page/1/312494/#312494 The problems with (B) come from cards which discard other cards from your hand as part of their effect/cost. According to this interpretation, there doesn't appear to be anything stopping me from, for example, playing Endurance to get -3 ![]() ![]() ![]() Further, what happens to the card if it's discarded before finishing applying its effects? Do the effects still happen? If so, why did the card need to stay in hand in the first place, if the effects could have still happened from the discard pile the whole time? Or are the effects interrupted and I can't apply the second effect in the later step? If that's the case though, what happens if the card was going to be blocked? Logically that should be interrupted as well, have I now got out of paying the cost?? Also, how does Denhom's "Determination" work in this case? The discard is quite explicitly first and in an earlier step. I have to assume it's in my discard pile when the effect is applied. Finally, this interpretation seems at odds with the rulebook page 18, which in its description of both "block" and "discard" says that you move the card "immediately". I get that the point is you haven't "reached" that instruction yet while the card is stalled waiting to apply another effect, but it's quite unintuitive. All told, I think interpretation (B) unnecessarily opens a massive can of worms that could have been entierly avoided with interpretation (A). I would like however some official word on this since I can't reasonably continue believing (A) while official comments in other threads imply (B). Posté
This is important. Devs, please clarify this and put it in the FAQ.
Posté
I have already answered a similar question on BGG: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3264056/article/43944331
- Action cards in hand can be played at any stage of the action resolution sequence (unless stated otherwise). Posté
Hi
Thanks for the response, but this answer is only going as far as telling me what I already knew. My main purpose was to argue that it should be reconsidered. But, if I accept it as given, the implications still have some uncertainty that I feel is not answered by this reply. Can I confirm then that I can discard card A to pay for another ability on card B, even though I have already activated an ability on card A which will result in card A being discarded, such as described in the example with Endurance? Thereby paying the cost of both cards with just card A. Can I get clarification on what happens if a card is discarded (either to another card's ability, or to text in the consequence step) before all of the effects have been applied? Can the remaining effects still be applied? If the answer to the above is that remaining effects cannot be applied, does this also apply to instructions such as blocking the card? Can I confirm that Denhom's and Arthen's "Determination" is still discarded during the gear up step, despite that being inconsistent with the statement that " A played card is discarded (if indicated) as soon as all its effects have been used, or otherwise at the end of the complete action resolution sequence."? Posté - Edité
Irgy a écrit : Thanks for the response, but this answer is only going as far as telling me what I already knew. My main purpose was to argue that it should be reconsidered. But, if I accept it as given, the implications still have some uncertainty that I feel is not answered by this reply. Your proposal to reconsider this rule clarification has already been studied by the author before. But the other solutions generated other problems. The choice is therefore the one stated by Sarah. Irgy a écrit : Can I confirm then that I can discard card A to pay for another ability on card B, even though I have already activated an ability on card A which will result in card A being discarded, such as described in the example with Endurance? Thereby paying the cost of both cards with just card A. Sarah's last sentence in her rule gives an implicit instruction (which she confirmed to me): the discarding of a played card ONLY occurs during this timing (end of effects or 4B step). Voluntary discarding from another card is prohibited. Irgy a écrit : Can I get clarification on what happens if a card is discarded (either to another card's ability, or to text in the consequence step) before all of the effects have been applied? Can the remaining effects still be applied? This case is not possible*. According to Sarah's rule, the played card cannot be absent with its effect not yet applied. The discard arrives after the application of the effects or in 4B step (after ![]() Irgy a écrit : If the answer to the above is that remaining effects cannot be applied, does this also apply to instructions such as blocking the card? Not applicable. Irgy a écrit : Can I confirm that Denhom's and Arthen's "Determination" is still discarded during the gear up step, despite that being inconsistent with the statement that " A played card is discarded (if indicated) as soon as all its effects have been used, or otherwise at the end of the complete action resolution sequence."? These 2 cards have a text that applies in priority to Sarah's rule, as required by the golden rule (the card takes precedence over the rule). * In the other answer, you talked about Consequence step : if a ![]() ![]() ![]() I hope that it's more clear now. ![]() ![]() ![]() T7Continent : ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() T7Citadel : ![]() Posté
Hi Firebird
Thanks for the detailed response. What you're saying does however raise a few questions. Sorry to harp on, but it wasn't any of the answers I was expecting, so the questions I'm now asking are entirely new issues. "Blacksmith" A0065 has no instruction to discard it, so fails the "(if indicated)" condition in Sarah's statement. Can I therefore play Blacksmith to save 2 energy on a check, then play Brooks' "Save your energy" and discard "Blacksmith", even though the second effect on Blacksmith is still pending? Page 19 of the rulebook says "You can discard ![]() Am I able to voluntarily decline to gain the pending effects from an ability in order to block/discard a card sooner? Posté
Irgy a écrit : "Blacksmith" A0065 has no instruction to discard it, so fails the "(if indicated)" condition in Sarah's statement. Can I therefore play Blacksmith to save 2 energy on a check, then play Brooks' "Save your energy" and discard "Blacksmith", even though the second effect on Blacksmith is still pending? + Irgy a écrit : Am I able to voluntarily decline to gain the pending effects from an ability in order to block/discard a card sooner? According to my understanding, we can't decide to decline an effect. We only may apply a null effect instead. ==> That's make the card in a "played" state until the last step of theses effects is over. At this moment, it's time to discard/block this card if asked, or to return it to a "non-player, available" state. I hope this use of states isn't too confuse but it's the best way I've found to explain. Your example/ - I play Blacksmith (Image of the card ![]() ![]() - I play Brooks' "Save your energy" (Image of the card ![]() ![]() - At the Result step, you may not use Blacksmith for its conversion effect. Now, Blacksmith has the state of "non-played" card. Another example could be the sames cards played in another order / - I play Brooks' "Save your energy" (Image of the card ![]() ![]() - After that, there's no Blacksmith card in my Hand to reduce the cost of the Action. ![]() Irgy a écrit : Page 19 of the rulebook says "You can discard IMO, the rule could be : "You can discard ![]() It' a rule to allow the player to manage his hand's size. Nothing more. So, yes, the Sarah's text add to you a discarding optimization, but it's not in conflit with the rule (as I completed it). Your questions push me to my analytical limits. ![]() And, I'm sorry, but SP is overwhelmed by work for the next KS campain. ![]() ![]() ![]() T7Continent : ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() T7Citadel : ![]() Posté
Thanks Firebird.
The resulting rules system seems self consistent and manageable to me now. I feel compelled to point out that the inability to discard (a played) Blacksmith to Save your energy in that situation is something which nobody could possibly figure out from reading the rulebook as written. But it's not otherwise a problem of any significance. I'd suggest if there's ever a later edition of the rulebook to make the state a card is in while it has been played-but-not-resolved explicit, give it a name, make it clear that it's still considered "in your hand" at this time, and actually write down what can and can't cause it to leave your hand. Posté - Edité
Something similar to purse cards, which are SELECTED, could be applied here. Except you can select it when applicable. Selected skill cards can't be discarded or manipulated by other effects. After you resolve the effect, it is either
[selected] unselect this [selected] discard this [selected] block this [selected] discard another card, etc. |
Forums/ The 7th Citadel/ Rules and Operating Points9 messages |
Forums
Dernières discussions
Dernier scénario Dadachaem + divers points
par beri -
Erratas
par Toussaint -
Outil de sauvegarde
par StephSAM -
scénario d'intro scanné ?
par jcmag -
Espoir Renait et Troc
par BarcaRocket -
Carte 44
par Karlack -
Action à plusieurs
par Moby -
Quand utiliser les cartes lueurs d'espoirs/l'espoirs renait ?
par BarcaRocket -
[Exploit confirmé] Dialogue 145 et/ou Carte 126 (quête de Tradamus)
par Firebird -
Bloqué devant la fresque (Tambours funestes)
par Shadowmoon -